TV Watercooler

(This one reposted from the old board - it would be a shame for this to be lost for all time!)

Company: Modern Life?
Apply to: Phil Hobden
Web: http://www.mod-life.net
Posting date: 23 Jul 2008
Deadline: 19 Aug 2008

Application Details
Starts: 03 Aug 2008
Contract Type: Temporary / freelance (Part time)
Payment: Collaboration-Expenses only (no pay)

Details
Action film ‘Kung Fu Flid’ is current in pre-production. This unconventional martial arts project tells the story of Jimmy, a thalidomide short armed kung fu star and his other half Lu, who are trying to get their daughter back from the claws of child trafficking gangsters who, unbeknown to them, want to fry her in acid. In turns shocking, hilarious and touching Kung FU Flid is an ultra violent contemplation on the meaning of life.

The film, starring Mat Fraser, Fay Tozer (Steps, ‘Lady Godiva Back in the Saddle’), Frank Harper (‘Lock, Stock’ & ‘This IS England’) and Terry Stone (‘Rise Of The Footsolider’, ‘Ten Dead Men’) and is The written & directed by award winning writer and director Xavier Leret.

We are Urgently looking for a Camera Assistant for this project.

Whilst it’s not essential but a track record in either low budget features or short films would be helpful, beyond all that we are ideally looking for someone with enthusiasm and a massive interest in film Independent film making. You’ll be working alongside some of the best Independent filmmakers in the UK so will get the opportunity to see what making an Indie film is all about.

The film will start shooting in August and will be filming around the London area.

This is a deferred paid position. We will cover expenses. In addition there will be various other benefits available, depending on involvement in the project.

The film is co-produced by Phil Hobden (Modern Life?) and has sales & distribution attached. Despite these attachments we have a minuscule budget, which is be spent on equipment, expenses and postproduction.

Interested in this role? Email:(1.5meg MAX)

Please note: We are NOT looking for any other cast or crew at the moment and will delete all other applications. We operate boxtrapper Spam Trap so you may be required to verify your email.

Benefits: Food provided/allowance (expenses), Travel provided/allowance (expenses), Invite to screening, Wrap party, Regular updates about film's progress

Dear Phil,

I apologise for bothering you but I am writing about your advert as I wondered whether a position like this should be paid if you expect this person to do work for you.

Is that not the case? I would be grateful you could let me know.

Many thanks

Those are the terms of this film. Other films have bigger budgets and we can pay.

Phil Hobden
Modern Life?
Tel: +44 (0) 7786 516728
Skype ID: philhobden
Portal Site: www.mod-life.net
phil@mod-life.net

Hi Phil, Many thanks but surely this work must be paid at least at the rate of the Minimum Wage, irrespective of the budget?

Again I understand your concern I do. But I have a budget of under £10 to shoot a feature film. If I offered to pay everyone I wouldn’t be bale to shoot the film. That’s why people have the option of either coming on board or not, based on the terms I can offer. We do offer a deferred payment + expenses which is fair.

What’s your interest in this?

Hi Phil, many thanks, I'm just a freelancer who's concerned. Wouldn't it be better to wait until you get funding before you start production? I 'm guessing it's planned to be a commercial proposition - if it is a goer then surely it is wiser to take the financial risk if you think it's going to pay off or cancel if you think it isn't? The issue is that the regulations do say that people must be paid, whether they agree to work unpaid or not. This isn't everyone though - only those that can't be self employed (runners and assistants etc), would it possible to keep it on the right side of the law by agreeing to pay at least these people?

I’m an indie filmmaker who has made two features for under $30k USD. Each one has funded the next. I have paid expenses, given showreel footage and paid deferments as promised but if I waited until I had official funding? I’d never work and most people in this industry would never get their breaks. Because of me given these guys breaks I have had people go on to work on Bonds, Bourne’s and Batmans and given them feature film credits on released movies – better releases that some paid work or features.

These guys would never have got these breaks if they hadn’t taken a risk. So no they way I do things works fine for me and EVERYONE I have worked with so far

Hi Phil, it may well work fine for you but the issue is that by doing this it means that only people who can afford to work unpaid can hope to break into this industry, surely not terrible fair? And again, what about the law that says you must pay people at least the legal minimum? For that little extra amount (£5.52 an hour) this could also be done above board as well - surely avoiding the attention of the taxman would be worth that little extra!

The law as such does not apply for these roles due to the deferred pay option.

This debate rages on week after week on these film boards. The fact is I offer the best and fairest way for people to work on a film. They can choose to or not to. It’s their right.

I work for free, for a share of the profits so why should I pay others above me who lives and breathes the film 24/7.

It does apply Phil, deferred payments are only valid under the regulations where they are guaranteed and paid within the correct time period, it is also written into the regulations that it is not within the gift of an individual to avoid the tax and NI that is due on their pay. If you check with the relevant people they will be happy to confirm this.

You can work for free because you can be self employed, or as the owner of the business - if you take the risk, you deserve the rewards.

Would it be possible for yopu to check this with the Minimum Wage people?

Again… I work for free and don’t get paid for working on my film. I have checked this out. I can offer work as unpaid work experience on a hobby project where any money made will be paid back to those involved. This is acceptable. This is why over 10 unpaid projects per day are advertised on EVERY film board. These are not commercial projects until they sell as not sales or money is up front. I fund these projects myself.

I am non unionised and intend to remain that way. People can take it or not. I’m sorry that you feel this is unfair to you, but you cant please all the people…

Phil, you can work unpaid because you can be self employed - it's a specific exception under the regulations (see here: http://www.dti.gov.uk/files/file11671.pdf). In terms of unpaid work experience, the DTI have published specific guidelines about this which back up the regulations and clearly point out that only full time students on specific placements from their college/university can qualify (see here: http://www.skillset.org/tv/article_5541_1.asp).

This is not a union issue, nor is ait an issue on only commercial projects. Whether a project makes money or not, unless it is for a charity, the Minimum Wage regulations apply. Can you at least check out the information in these links?

As I have said like it or not hundreds of projects exist this way… without this method of working so many no budget films wouldn’t exisit and hundreds of people wouldn’t have gotten their breaks.

Sorry your nose is out of joint but I don’t understand what you are trying to achieve with this? Would I hire you now… no, I only want people I can work with.

It's not a question of whether I like it or not, it's what the law says - apart from anything, surely you are not going to embark on risking invoking the ire of the taxman?

Either way the tax man has had no issues with the way I have done this on two projects. Regardless I still don’t get your aims here… I am not the right person to be preaching to and if you had done your research you would have found that. I am strongly for this kind of work… work even I undertake myself on others projects and for magazines…

But what is your aim?

My aim is to see that young workers on commercial films like this are paid at least the legal minimum - it's the fair thing, but also the requirements of the law. If you read the regulations you will see they are very clear about this - will you?

I worked in recruitment for 6 years. I know the law. I know how it applies to films and how my exemptions are valid. I am no longer willing to engage in this debate.

The way I work is fair, s is that of my partners and their projects and that of the industry as a whole. You are fighting a large battle here on many fronts and I shall be warning other filmmakers to watch out for you and avoid entering into debate.

Thanks for your time, it’s been fun. Now lets leave it there … on a polite note.

Phil, I've referred you to the regulations on this; they are clear and, with the guidelines, are specific about this issue. You seem unwilling to actually read them however or to ask the relevant authorities, I would guess because you don't want to hear what they have to say. I would be grateful if you would tell other filmmakers about this - it is an issue which should be faced by every commercial feature film Producer.

No reply.

And Phil goes on using illegal unpaid workers. Do feel free to post here iso everyone can know abvout it. Meanwhile: Phil Hobden, "Modern Life", http://akljsajspo/: Freelancers beware!

Hey Phil

Were back - why don't you join us and defend your actions?

Or are you too scared to have your activity debated in a public forum?

I understand and agree that people shouldn't work for free, but pouncing on this guy is lame.
At least he had the decency to reply to you.
All you achieved was making youself look like a know-it-all tit.

Sadly, if you are making a film on no money, you cant pay people, he is very clear on that. I wouldn't go out of my way to work for the guy because I know I wont get paid, but why bother crucifying him for it, it isn't like he's promised anything?

I occasionally have people working for me for free. However, I use the term loosely, because all I'm really doing is rallying up like minded people who enjoy making films, who otherwise would be sat infront of a forum, crusading for paid, imaginary work.

Why not send some emails to actual production companies that DO have money and still dont pay. Thats where the real problem lies.
Now I dont know Phil, but I do understand where is coming from and I gotta say I'd be happy to put in some hours for him if I believed in the project and I didn't have to travel very far. (and no, I cant afford to work for free either)

By the way, what does Phil have to say about being duped into appearing on this forum?

So you agree that people shouldn't work for free but it is somehwo wrong to expect it of this commercial film maker. How does that work then?

The fact that Phil Hobden is incapable of constructing a budget that works within the law hardly exempts him from his legal responsibilities. This isn't a question of "rallying like minded people" to collaborate on a project; he recruits people, expects them to do work for him and gives them set responsibilities within set hours, all unpaid. People do actually seek to make a living out of doing work like this - what right does this individual have to consider himself above the law and deprive people of their legal rights?

Do you know how annoying you are?...

I agree that people shouldn't work for free, but I do also advocate that its a free world where people can decide for themselves rather than be screamed at from the likes of you.
Although, I must admit, its hard to hear the screaming over the sound of your hand relentlessely patting your own back. And I'm sat in a soundproof room, reading this nonsense.

When you hear of a company that offers to pay you, and then flakes on that agreement, come back and we'll all be willing to read.

I know, it must be annoying to be presented with hard fact so firmly in this way.

You omit to mention the context in your flag waving case for people being allowed to choose for themselves. And that context is that there are so many film makers like Phil Hobden about trying to make a fast buck, that young people starting out in the industry have very little choice but to work unpaid in order to start their career. So "people deciding for themselves" doesn't really exist in reality. And in case you aren't aware (which you seem not to bne) employers can't weasel out of paying the legal minimum just by saying they won't pay.

And in terms of people being willing to read about this stuff, that's never been an issue on this forum.

I'll tell you what's really annoying
Ugli - a grown man using the word
'gotta'.... whilst spouting the usual
pathetic bollocks we've heard on here
a million times from try-hards like you.

If you really are a talented producer or
director then you would ensure that
funding is in place for all your wonderful
projects. If you believed in them *that*
much then you'd risk your own cash to
make up the shortfall. Just don't expect
others to make up for your lack of film-
making nous by whoring themselves for
free.

We do.


No, I'm sure you don't....



Eh?

Soundproofed room or padded cell?

Do you all feel like bigger, smarter people because of your heroic acts?
Or do I have to hang out more bait?

I just dont understand what your trying to achieve. You obviously haven't put the guy out of business and I cant suss out any reason for posting such a long winded email other than making yourself look like you have a massive cock.
Sorry but I dont like a rub fest. If folks want to make films for no money and ask people to work for free they can.
You haven't exposed anything he hasen't exposed himself and there's nothing in this thread to stop him doing it again.

Personally though, with a title like Kung Fu Flid, not only would I put in a few hours, but I am willing to pay him to make it.